CAP 34 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

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spoo

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CAP Co-Leader
CAP 34 So Far

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CAP 34 is a Dragon / Poison type that aims to utilize Throat Spray.

In this stage, we will try to analyze which Pokemon sets could threaten or be threatened by us. Based on our typing and concept we will also decide which specific threats we should focus on later stages, and which ones should be mostly left alone. Then, the Topic Leader will organize them into a list, following this basic format:
  • Switch in: The list of Pokemon on which we should be able to have a easy time switching in and then forcing them out, more than once in a game. This doesn't mean that we should be able to come into any of their moves, just their most commonly used ones.
  • Pressure: The list of Pokemon that might threaten us, but should not be able to switch in easily. They should not be able to check us easily.
  • Checks and Counters: The list of Pokemon should, in some way, threaten us. This might mean that they will probably be able to beat us 1v1, or at least severely cripple us. Certain Pokemon, in particular Revenge Killers might be included both in here and in Pressure, because once they switch in, they should be able to check us.
This threatlist should serve as a guideline for the rest of the project. However, this is not set in stone, and might change later if the Topic Leadership Team deems it necessary.

The following is a set of questions that we should try to answer during this discussion:
  • Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the CAP metagame will be able to comfortably give this project trouble?
  • What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
  • What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
  • What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
  • Will the concept succeed with this list of threats?
  • Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
  • What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
  • Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
  • Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
  • What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?
  • What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
  • Are there any Pokemon that we want to completely counter?
No individual post has to answer every question.

Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if a particular argument is poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.
3) Refer to Pokemon by specific sets. This way we can clearly identify which specific sets we should be focusing on, and what specific characteristics makes us threaten or threatened by them. Adding complete movesets, EV spreads and Natures is recommended, but not mandatory.
4) Assume that Stealth Rock in on both sides of the field, unless otherwise specified. This can be changed by the Topic Leader during the discussion.
4) This are the exact definitions of check and counter that we will be working with:

-Pokémon A checks a Pokémon B set if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into that Pokémon B set, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
-Pokémon A counters a Pokémon B set if Pokémon A can manually switch into that Pokémon B set, and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

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With all that, I'll hand it over to dex for their opening post.
 

dex

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We got our concept, we got our item, and now we got our typing. Let's have a discussion now on what actually threatens CAP 34. Try to keep discussion of specific Pokemon limited to ones that are viable and currently see meta play. We'll start with CAP 34's favorable situations.

What are some Pokemon CAP 34 should be able to set up on? CAP 34 will need to proc Throat Spray one way or another, and it is best to do so against something that can't really threaten CAP34 back or deal with its boost. Is it better to have the bulk to set up on more foes or the initial power to potentially force foes out?

What are some Pokemon CAP 34 should be able to switch into? Are there any Pokemon that CAP 34 does not easily switch into, knowing what little we currently know about CAP 34, that would be good targets for later stages?
 

boomp

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Honestly I think this just answer both questions, but we should easily be able to set up/switch into Venomicon :venomicon: . We can easily proc throat spray on it and be able to swap on annoying Sludge Bomb + Body Press that it throws at us. I think making it bulky is the play, as it will let us be able to set up on the walls confidently. Mons that come to mind that we don't switch into is like Equilibra :equilibra: , Dragapult :dragapult: and to an extent Cresceidon :cresceidon: and Hemogoblin :hemogoblin: . We dont wont to get T Wave or even +1 Tera Fairy E speed from hemo. :equilibra: Equilibra honestly just walls us at this point as well so those are the threats that come to mind. Forgot to mention as well, we dont want to comfortably swap into a Draco Meteor from Pult :dragapult: . :equilibra: Equilibra resist our STAB and retaliates back with Doom Desire + Earth Power.
 
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What are some Pokemon CAP 34 should be able to set up on? CAP 34 will need to proc Throat Spray one way or another, and it is best to do so against something that can't really threaten CAP34 back or deal with its boost. Is it better to have the bulk to set up on more foes or the initial power to potentially force foes out?
Given, that this typing affords us with the best defensive profile of the options on poll two and solid possibilities to switch into or set up on mons like Venomicon, Ogerpon-W, Iron Moth and Rillaboom among others, but a the same time lacks many super effective hits, I believe that the focus should initially be the ability to force real damage on walls with high SpA and good coverage.
The second focus I think should be making it harder to force this Mon out once it’s set up.
This Mon has a good spread of defensively neutral matchups, and with a prospective speed boost of some sort, should allow it to make it harder to revenge kill by the common options, Like Hemogoblin, Dragapult, Iron Valiant, Kingambit, Scarf Dengo, Scarf Meowscarada.
I think Matchups that we shouldn’t lose despite this typing not indicating a good matchup are Equilibra and Arghonaut, both are immensely common defensive mons and a deciding factor if a sweeper is actually viable or not.
I think Slowking Galar and Ting Lu look like counters, that are going to be hard to manage regardless of what we do.
 

Brambane

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Set-up on is somewhat of a tough discussion because we need to somewhat determine how exactly we are going about setting up. There is a pretty big disparity between the obvious Clanging Scales STAB (a set-up move that is functionally 110 BP for +1 SpA and -1 Def at the cost of an item slot, so a really funky Loaded Dice Scale Shot situation) and Clangorous Soul, which is 33% for +2/+1s. Since you don't get the boost before you attack and Dragon is overwhelmingly neutral into a lot of things, if its a physical attacker and you are relying on Clanging Scales to set-up, you have less leeway and power on the first hit and give a slower Pokemon the chance to hit your now lower Defense. Ofc Clangorous Soul also cuts into your survivability as well, although the payoff in raw stat power is much higher and the bulk can mitigate damage, especially comparing -1 to +1 Defense before the opponent can attack.

I don't think there is a super clear "correct" pathway here, it could go either way when it comes to power or bulk. I would personally lean towards focusing a lot more on bulk, especially Special Defense since regardless if we go with Clanging Scales or Clangorous Soul, SpD doesn't really care either way.

There is a strong suite of Pokemon we probably don't want to switch into without aid of pivoting. Dragapult, Equilibra, Great Tusk, Ting-Lu, Miasmaw, Slowking, Cresceidon (Twave), Gliscor, Kyurem, you get the idea. I think to stand out as a Poison-type (as a Dragon, hitting the common Fairies is enough to make it feel relevant) and as a boosting attacker, CAP34 should be able to muscle past the big 4 Ground-types in some capacity (Tusk, Libra, Gliscor, and Ting-Lu). Alternatively, we probably don't want to switch into Arghonaut since Knock Off seems like a dire situation for non-Clangorous sets. But if we could beat Arghonaut or the Unawares, we would stand out as a sweeper similar to how Miasmaw carved a niche for itself.

I think in general we have a very neutral typing, but switching into Water and Grass-types should be reasonable. Electric-types not named Raging Bolt should be attainable as well.
 
What are some Pokemon CAP 34 should be able to set up on? CAP 34 will need to proc Throat Spray one way or another, and it is best to do so against something that can't really threaten CAP34 back or deal with its boost. Is it better to have the bulk to set up on more foes or the initial power to potentially force foes out?
Given our typing, we should make the best use of our resistances to set up on stuff that we check. We should have the bulk to set up on Venom, Rillaboom, Caribolt, Ogrepon-Water, etc. Offensive glasses, electrics, waters, and some fairies like Clef and Hemo. Thus I believe speccing more into our physical tankiness is more beneficial so we can easier stomach something like +1 hemo espeed or Tera Water Ivy Cudgel.

What are some Pokemon CAP 34 should be able to switch into? Are there any Pokemon that CAP 34 does not easily switch into, knowing what little we currently know about CAP 34, that would be good targets for later stages?
We may want to look into how we get past Arghonaut. As of now Argh is one of our best checks because Unaware, Circle Throw, and Knock Off shut CAP34 down currently and so it may be worth looking into how we can remedy that matchup.
 
I don’t really get what we gain from leaning into the defensive matchups more instead of focusing on how we break open defensive cores, when our offensive typing doesn’t grant us many SE hits across the tier?
We need to sorta hit very hard or somehow circumvent our neutral at best matchup to fuck with defensive staples like Arghonaut, Equilibra, Ting Lu or Slowking Galar.
Imo this Mon should be able to 1v1 at least two of these after the boost and I’d also prefer it to avoid being revenged by proto boosted Dragons.
This to me indicates a very aggressive spread that utilizes its sorta solid resistances and neutral match ups to set up and become threatening.
 
irt; above

TDLR: Taking advantage of our ability to switch in is playing the typing to its strengths.

Poison Dragon is great at hitting things neutrally and a lot of stuff we hit for SE we already come in on relatively safely, like Boom and Ogrepon. Therefore, in my opinion, it makes the most sense to have the bulk to safely switch in on them and have enough HP to go go gadget omniboost and then sweep from there. I agree we need to hit extremely hard and there are ways to get that done (mainly Ability and Stats) while still having the tankiness that help us set up our sweep and will help us survive any priority during our sweep.
We can easily threaten out stuff with our bulk as well. An Ogrepon Can't really do anything to us except uturn out giving us basically a free chance to set up.
 

Samirsin

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:snom:
Screenshot_20240308_145516.jpg
Our typing is the best at countering one of the best Pokémon in the tier, Venomicon:venomicon:, standard sets have Body Press and/or Sludge Bomb as their only attacking moves, which we resist. Roost, Stealth Rock and Stamina are not a threat to us.

Depending on our stats, Hemogoblin :hemogoblin: might me a problem with PixiESpeed. There are some abilities and move interactions that kinda help and even completely counter this matchup, but I will leave that for their respective threads. This matchup depends on the next steps. (little hint, anti priority and anti heal)

Being weak to Ground-type in CAP is unfortunate, as there's Gliscor:gliscor:, Equilibra:equilibra:, and many Earth Power/Earthquake users, like Great Tusk:great tusk:. I think it's only fitting that we are weak to them.

Arghonaut:arghonaut:, Clefable:clefable:, Dondozo:dondozo:, and Sires :quagsire::clodsire: are the Unaware Pokémon. We should fear Arghonaut as Unaware+Circle Throw completely counters us. Clefable is weak to poison, however, many are tera steel, checking us really well. Dondozo is an Unaware pokemon that is really good at walling and healing. Clodsire and Quagsire are both Ground type, which can Earthquake on us without the fear of boosts. These matchups heavily depend on stats, however, I thinking we should always fear Arghonaut. The rest can be manageable with moves or stats.

Paralysis users like Cresceidon:Cresceidon: or Malaconda:Malaconda: are interesting foes, as both are weak to our stabs, but we don't want to be statused. There's no way we OHKO Cresceidon with HDB and Multiscale, so that's a check. Malaconda can also weaken us with Parting Shot and bring a Chlorophyll or Protosynthesis mon to outspeed or resist our attacks. So these ones are not the best matchups.
 
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Brambane

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To note w.r.t Ogerpon, Malaconda, Venomicon and Rillaboom:

While these mons seem like obvious things for us to switch in on, all of them but especially Rillaboom can run Knock Off. The more dependent we are on Throat Spray, the more caution CAP34 must take when trying to switch in. The common saying "a Knocked Krilowatt is a dead Krilowatt" comes to mind; the more dependent on your item you are, the more punishing the midground Knock Off plays.

I expect CAP34 to find favorable openings more through the HO style of "my teammate died!" or smart double switches than anything else.
 

Samirsin

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The common saying "a Knocked Krilowatt is a dead Krilowatt" comes to mind
Wasn't it A knocked Libra is a dead Libra? lol, poor CAPs, they die when they are knocked off.
Anyways, yeah, as Brambane says Knock Off is a huge obstacle for CAP 34.
Screenshot_20240308_165140.jpg
It also depends on the Speed of CAP34 the way it will handle Knock Off. If it attacks before, it consumes Throat Spray and then Knock Off is not as threatening. Seeing this, Roaring Moon:roaring moon: also becomes a threat, as we are hit super effectively by Dragon moves and fear Knock Off from it. It also adds a layer of threateness(?) to Clefable.
 
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To note w.r.t Ogerpon, Malaconda, Venomicon and Rillaboom:

While these mons seem like obvious things for us to switch in on, all of them but especially Rillaboom can run Knock Off. The more dependent we are on Throat Spray, the more caution CAP34 must take when trying to switch in. The common saying "a Knocked Krilowatt is a dead Krilowatt" comes to mind; the more dependent on your item you are, the more punishing the midground Knock Off plays.

I expect CAP34 to find favorable openings more through the HO style of "my teammate died!" or smart double switches than anything else.
To add to this, I'd like to talk for a minute about one of our defining moves, Clangorous Soul. Something to consider is that this move makes switching into literally anything a pretty risky prospect. You come out even in terms of effective bulk when you use Clangorous Soul, but only if you're at full health. If you've taken any damage, you actually lose effective bulk when you use the move (the easiest way to visualize this is to think about the scenario where you start out at 34% health and use the move, leaving you at ~1% with +1 defenses). In a sense, any damage taken while switching in is magnified. We already are faced with taking full damage from hazards, and if you add in even minor chip damage on switching in, it reduces your ability to tank hits (priority moves, for instance) more than you would expect. We also may find ourselves dropping our defense stat with another defining move, Clanging Scales. On a clangorous build in particular, I think we're ideally coming in on a free switch almost every time.
 

dex

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What an exciting and fast-paced stage this is... quick summary before getting into the last question we need to go over before heading into ability!

Based on typing, Ground- and Steel-types like Iron Treads, Equilibra, Gholdengo, and Gliscor, to a lesser extent, are very threatening to CAP 34, even after set-up. Now, these are matchups that can be aided via stats and coverage, but for right now, these Pokemon and more niche ones like Heatran are very difficult for CAP 34 to get through.

Because CAP 34 will be a sweeper of some kind, status from Pokemon like Cresceidon and Venomicon is a death sentence. Luckily for CAP 34, it possesses a Toxic immunity; however, Thunder Wave is a massive threat, making Pokemon that carry it unsafe to set up on.

Knock Off is particularly worrying, as CAP 34 is understandably very item-reliant. Pokemon with Knock Off that CAP 34 would otherwise like to switch into, such as Ogerpon and Venomicon, become much more difficult to take advantage of. That being said, Knock Off becomes of 0 concern once Throat Spray is activated, making the move more of a nuisance than anything. Still, Knock Off's effect on CAP 34 pre-Throat Spray should be at the forefront of our minds when thinking about how CAP 34 will play.

As is the case for most set-up sweepers, Unaware Pokemon like Clodsire and Arghonaut present difficult challenges to overcome. Arhgonaut in particular is difficult, as its Circle Throw completely invalidates CAP 34's gameplan. Tools that help make these sort of matchups better will be at a premium.

Poison / Dragon, as has been said in this thread, is already a very solid defensive typing that likely will not need much help to suit CAP 34's needs. Our upcoming problem will be helping CAP 34 perform offensively with a STAB combo that is somewhat easily walled. That is not to say CAP 34 would not appreciate more defensive tools, as the way the game is played makes the line between offense and defense pretty blurry, but making sure CAP 34 has enough "oomph" is definitely a priority.

Our next (and last) step on the extremely wild and crazy threats ride is pressures. Pressures for CAP 34 is a more difficult thing to talk about because CAP 34 is leaning towards being a one-and-done sweeper, something that, by definition, wants very few pressures. CAP 34 does not want to be switching out after boosting, plainly. However, it will need some, so it will be good to identify potential pressures here to pick and choose from later. So, to

What are some Pokemon that can force/pressure CAP 34 out after set-up? How much of a concern is longevity given CAP 34's desired one-and-done playstyle?
 
What are some Pokemon that can force/pressure CAP 34 out after set-up? How much of a concern is longevity given CAP 34's desired one-and-done playstyle?
Assuming Argh can tank a Clanging Scales, it can ruin us with Circle Throw. Longevity should not be too much of a concern because we should be outspeeding most mon after we start our sweep, through Clangorous Soul or other means. Being able to tank some priority such as Hemo Speed or Gambit Sucker after our boost would be invaluable, however.
 
What are some Pokemon that can force/pressure CAP 34 out after set-up? How much of a concern is longevity given CAP 34's desired one-and-done playstyle?
I would say the big one would be Hemogoblin after some chip depending on our bulk. Depending on our speed stat, Proto speed Great Tusk and Walking Wake will be huge threats. Quark Drive Speed Iron Valiant also may be a problem. Dragapult too. Unaware Walls could also force us out. Equilibra at this point definitely forces us out.

Longevity shouldn’t be too much of a concern. CAP 34 should be able to cleanly sweep a weakened team or should have the bulk to take a couple of Pokémon out after boosts before being revenge killed.
 
What are some Pokemon that can force/pressure CAP 34 out after set-up?
Ting-Lu and Argh can both force CAP 34 to switch out with Whirlwind and Circle Throw respectively, completely stopping CAP 34's sweep. Additionally Pokemon that can take CAP 34's stabs and hit it back are also an issue without proper coverage. Equilibra, Clodsire and Heatran can all hit CAP 34 super effectively, Libra and Clod using stabs and Tran with Earth Power. Kingambit and Nasty Plot Gholdengo also pose a threat to CAP 34 by eating it's stabs and setting up on it, forcing CAP 34 to switch out to something that can deal with them ruining it's sweep.
 

dex

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Alright, quick summary:

After CAP 34 sets up, there are two main ways to deal with it: Unaware Pokemon and Priority. Abilities, stats, and moves that help deal with those Pokemon are powerful options for CAP 34 to watch for. Based on typing and bulk, Heatran and Equilibra remain difficult for CAP 34 to handle without the proper coverage. Ting-Lu as well is a difficult Pokemon to get through, and one that carries a super effective Earthquake and Whirlwind. Revenge killers that may be faster than a +1 CAP 34, such as Booster Energy Iron Valiant and Great Tusk are also scary foes for CAP 34 in a Clangorous Soul situation.

With that, I think it is high time we move on to Ability!
 
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